Sequiturs and Non-Sequiturs
A relation between nonliving things and living things has never been found by the physical scientists. I argue that such a relation will never be found because living things possess different degrees of knowing whereas nonliving things have no ability to know. In my book, I use knowing to distinguish living things from nonliving things. Their differences allow me to say that nonliving things function as an infrastructure for life. Thus, there is a togetherness between nonliving and living things. But, there is no relation between them. Gottfried Leibniz called this togetherness ‘a preestablished harmony.’ This togetherness becomes clearer in my book.
While waiting for physicists to prove a relation between nonliving and living things, the atheistic life scientists make the assumption that life is a machine. This living machine is a reduced version of the physical universe. As a reduced machine, atheists expect us to believe that human life is explained by laws of physics. Based on these laws, atheists demand that we use sequiturs to explain life. A sequitur means ‘a conclusion that follows from an inference.’ Using scientific words, a sequitur means ‘cause is followed by effects’ or ‘ effects are followed by a cause.’ A sequitur is thus a circular argument that is used to explain a machine or a nonliving thing. If one could go inside any machine, one could not find its initial cause or its last effect. As seen, sequiturs are used by God and engineers only to make machines.
Physicists have not been able to make living things because only God can make living things. Since, living things are not machines, they cannot be explained with sequiturs. Living things must be explained by non-circular arguments and non-sequiturs. They reveal the different functions or purposes that God gave to all living things. Life is thus filled with non-sequiturs and non-circular arguments because living things are not machines. In the real life of humans, a human cause cannot predict its effects. Nor can human effects be explained by a root cause.
In the USA, 2% of the people are atheists and 98% of the people are believers that God created everything. As long as the 98% of the people remain silent, the atheists will maintain their wrong political demands and will maintain their wrong scientific demands. With these demands, the development of human life will suffer. For instance, problems such as cancer, diabetes etc. will not be solved. Isn’t it time to tell the atheists that their political and scientific demands are ‘not even wrong?’ We now know that such demands are ‘completely wrong.’
37 Comments:
At 1:49 PM, Dovie said…
George,
Could you please provide the definition of non-sequitur that you are using?
At 6:33 PM, George Shollenberger said…
dovie,
Let's ask this question first to the logicians.
At 10:12 PM, Dovie said…
I don't care what their definition is. I'm trying to understand your writing which means I need to know what definition you are using when you use words. You state in this post that "Living things must be explained by non-circular arguments and non-sequiturs." In order to understand what you mean, I need to know your definition of the term non sequitur.
It doesn't seem to be the same as the dictionary definition: "it doesn't follow" For instance, "I'm an American, therefore I'm a man." Since roughly 50% of the population is female, the statement "I'm a man" does not follow from the premise "I'm an American." In this context, "I'm a man" is a non sequitur.
At 2:30 AM, Anonymous said…
George D. Shollenberger
You always do that. When people ask you to define your terms, you never give a straight answer. That is not how it works in science. If you don't know, just say so.
Over here at Caltech we had a good laugh when reading your phrase "sequiturs are used by God and engineers to make machines". Ha ha ha!
At 9:23 AM, George Shollenberger said…
dovie,
My use of the word man is a general term and does not distinguish sex.
The word sequitur is one of those English language words that should find itself into the garbage can. As an engineer, i worked on many machines. The concept, sequitur, was never heard.
Then when I worked as a life scientist on the nation's crime problem, I never heard the word non-sequitor.
So, I worked on nonliving things and living things. And, I never heard of the words 'sequitur' or 'non-sequitur.' The best I can do is say that non-sequitur is something in a living thing and sequitur is something in a nonliving thign.
That is why I am waiting for logicians to define non-sequitor for us. Why don't you define it for the audience of the website?
At 9:34 AM, George Shollenberger said…
jeff steinberg,
I guess the college boys at Caltech are perfect humans. If so, define it for the audience of this website.
As a Hopkin's boy, I can only do the best I can.
Artifical intelligence is just another dream of atheism.
At 9:42 AM, Anonymous said…
George D. Shollenberger wrote:
"The best I can do is say that non-sequitur is something in a living thing and sequitur is something in a nonliving thing."
Ha ha ha ha! You poor man, you don't understand anything! Did you actually read dovie's post? The term "non-sequitur" has got nothing to do with living or non-living things, it's a term used by logicians to indicate that a conclusion does not follow from the premise. Basic stuff, really.
At 10:40 AM, MattP said…
It looks like Dovie already defined the term for you. It's claiming a relationship between a premise and a conclusion where non exists. I can provide another example: "I run fast, therefore I am an Olympic athlete." The conclusion "I am an Olympic athlete" does not follow from the premise "I run fast" because many people who are not Olympic athletes can run fast. That is a non sequitur. It doesn't have anything to do with living things or machinery or anything else you've mentioned.
At 1:57 PM, George Shollenberger said…
dovie Jef, and matt
dovie says 'I am an American, therefore I am a man,' dovie made a false statement among 'living things' he says that this false statement is a non-sequitur among living things. isn't that what i am saying?
In human life, home runs do not always follow a good swing. Nor does a big home run hitter always swing and get a home run. In life, it is normal to find things that do not follow as expected.
Establishing life around sequiturs and logical reasoning is a dangeroud path.
I realize that you atheists do not like my way of thinking. But, you have not yet found a hole in the thoughts I am developing under God.
At this time, I still conclude that you are the guys who do not understand anything, as jef would say.
At 2:56 PM, MattP said…
I'm not looking for holes in your thinking, I'm trying to understand what you are thinking. I cannot do that if we aren't working with the same definitions of terms and you appear to be using a non-standard definition of non sequitur.
A non sequitur is not a "false statement" it is a pairing of premises and a conclusion where the conclusion does not follow from the premises. The conclusion may be factually correct, but that correctness of the conclusion cannot be determined from the supplied premise.
Let's try another example.
Premise: "If I am a vegetarian, I eat vegetables."
Premise: "I eat vegetables."
Conclusion: "Therefore, I am a vegetarian."
All of those statement may be correct, but the conclusion stated isn't the only possible conclusion. For instance, I may eat meat AND vegetables, so the conclusion "I am a vegetarian" does not follow from the premises. It's not a false statement. It's a statement that isn't necessarily true, given the previous premises.
At 3:23 PM, Anonymous said…
"dovie says 'I am an American, therefore I am a man,' dovie made a false statement among 'living things' he says that this false statement is a non-sequitur among living things. isn't that what i am saying?"
No! It is irrelevant that dovie's example is about living things. Don't you see that? Relevant to our discussion is that the conclusion (I am a man) doesn't follow from the premise (I am an American). That's all. Man, your combination of ignorance and arrogance is exasperating.
At 4:54 PM, MattP said…
Here's an example that doesn't involve living things.
Premise: Supercomputers are expensive
Premise: Sports cars are expensive
Conclusion: Supercomputers are sports cars
In this case I chose something laughably ridiculous just to try to make the point clear. It has nothing to do with living things. It's just a conclusion that doesn't follow from the premises.
At 8:10 PM, George Shollenberger said…
matt and jef,
I can't remember but it might have gone this popular triplet:
socrates is man
all men are mortal
thus Socrates is mortal
I never used your suggested way of thinking in my research in the physical sciences or in the life sciences. Even in the life sciences I used cause/effect studies. I also did not use sequiturs in large cost/effectiveness analyses. In organizational studies, I used functional relations. I did not use your way of thinking in my studies of symbolic language.
In his studies of drama, Benneth Burk's analyzed drama scientifically. He did not use your way of thinking. Burke also predicted the Holocaust by reading Hitler's Mien Kamph and treating it as a drama.
I reject the second meaning of a non-sequitur in my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. It says 'a statement that does not follow logically from anything previously said.' This non-sequitur would eliminate God who has no cause.
Don't show me anymore examples. Show me where your system of thought was used successfully to solve a human problem. And don't give me a robot. Instead, solve a human problem with your way of thinking.
At 11:04 AM, Anonymous said…
"I never used your suggested way of thinking in my research in the physical sciences or in the life sciences (...) Show me where your system of thought was used successfully to solve a human problem."
In spite of especially matt's patient explanations, you still don't understand. A non sequitur is NOT a system of thought. If anything, it is an error WITHIN a system of thought. Your so-called proof is rife with non sequiturs.
By the way, Hitler's infamous book is called Mein Kampf, not Mien Kamph.
You talk a lot about the German language, but you manage to misspell each and every word you write in it.
You talk a lot about proofs and science, but you don't even know what a non sequitur is.
Doesn't that tell you something?
At 3:48 PM, George Shollenberger said…
jef Steinberg,,
You are walking away from the truth saying that a non sequitor 'is NOT a system thought.' You or anyone else can't use any linguistic symbol, such as 'non sequitur,' without thinking about its meaning.
You make me laugh about my scientific proof ogf God. It is clear that you have never read the proof. A bit of dishonesty here. It has only one definition and one logical move. Where are all of these non sequiturs?
I understand what matt is doing. But I am seeking a 'real' application. Perhaps you have not had a real experience on a real human problem. I thought that my question was simple.
Apparently, you do not know much about the proccess of thinking. Perhaps, you believe that we do not think.
But, calling a non-sequitur an error does not seem to be right because a baseball player does not make an error when he swings and misses. The consequence of a baseball swing seems not to be a a sequitur or a non-sequitur. So, here we have 'human life' in which sequiturs and non-sequiturs do not exist. Perhaps something is wrong with the way our logicians are thinking about 'human life.'
I am sloppy about spelling sometimes because I suffer from macular degeneration and my wife is not always arround. I hope that you avoid this aging problem.
I am a student of Burke.
I know enough science to talk to scientists in many fields of thought. But, I an getting to know that non-sequiturs do not apply to most ways of life.
I see two definitions of non sequitur in my dictionary. One of them eliminates God. The second one uses the term 'universal.' With the increasing failures of the school of physics, the term 'universal' no longer has a firm meaning.
I conclude that you also do know what a non-sequitur is. Doesn't that tell you something?
At 5:18 PM, MattP said…
OK, a real world example.
Premise: I will only vote for a Christian candidate.
Premise: Christians go to church.
Premise: Candidate X goes to church.
Conclusion: Therefore candidate X is a Christian and I will vote for him.
What if it turned out he was attending a non-Christian church? If so, then I was mistaken about him being a Christian and I could end up voting for a pagan or a satanist.
This is why one must be aware of non sequiturs - conclusions that don't follow from the premises - so that one may make properly supported conclusions.
At 9:03 PM, George Shollenberger said…
matt,
You have shown me an appropriate example.
But, I must consider its use in the affairs of living things. My concern is the philosophy of symbolicm and the future development of mind dialectically using symbolic languages, specifically in science and social communications.
Thanks, matt
At 4:56 AM, Anonymous said…
"You make me laugh about my scientific proof ogf God. It is clear that you have never read the proof. A bit of dishonesty here. It has only one definition and one logical move. Where are all of these non sequiturs?"
Well, that is obvious. A proof is a set of statements, each consisting of a number of premises, a number of inferences, and a conclusion. These are the "logical moves". If your proof only has one such move, all the other moves must necessarily be non sequiturs. A much better title for your book would have been The First Non Sequitur Proof of God.
Matt shows you a real world example about a Christian candidate. You call it an appropriate example, yet you go on to say: "But, I must consider its use in the affairs of living things." My question: isn't a Christian candidate a living thing? Do you think Christian candidates are anorganic beings?
At 9:39 AM, George Shollenberger said…
jef steinberg,
My proof begins with phenomena, which is all things in the universe. The first statement I make is, 'all things in the universe are finite.' Then,I remove all finite things from the universe by negating all of them. This negation reveals an infinite thing. How can the infinite thing, who is God, be a non-sequitur?
My book is not rife with non-sequiturs as you say.
Apparently, you have developed an Aristotelian MINDSET and this is why you don't understand me. I am a Platonist, not an Aristotelian.
matt's example does not convince me that life is logical.
See my posting today on Hegel's negatives. Hegel was a Platonists.
I believe that our logicians have some deep quesions to answer.
At 10:08 AM, Anonymous said…
"My proof begins with phenomena, which is all things in the universe. The first statement I make is, 'all things in the universe are finite.' Then,I remove all finite things from the universe by negating all of them. This negation reveals an infinite thing. How can the infinite thing, who is God, be a non-sequitur?"
This question of yours reveals that you, in spite of all our efforts, still don't understand what a non sequitur is. A non sequitur is never a thing or a being, it is a logical fallacy. It doesn't apply to the real world, but to the way we theorize about the real world. You should have asked: How can this conclusion be a non sequitur?
The fact that I (and matt and other people) understand what a non sequitur is while you remain clueless has nothing to do with Plato or Aristotle. It is a matter of intelligence, good education and an open mind.
At 11:04 AM, George Shollenberger said…
jef steinberg,
Well, you seem to be saying that I am not intellignt, do not have a good education, and have a closed mind because I disargee with you, matt and others.
Can't people disagree with you without being degraded?
For hundreds of years, scientists thought that Newton's Universe was correct, that is, until Einstein read Riemann's paper on geometry and announced his relativity theory.
So, I will hold onto my disagreement with you, matt, and others. My muscles are too stiff at age 78 to bend over to you argument. And, I certainly will not bend over to a proposal that aligns life's thoughts fully to logic.
At 11:09 AM, Anonymous said…
George Shollenberger,
Earlier during this discussion you wrote about your book: "It has only one definition and one logical move. Where are all of these non sequiturs?"
Over at your amazon blog you wrote: "I do use non-sequitures because my book deals with life and living things."
This begs the question: where are you lying, on this page or at your amazon blog?
At 11:42 AM, George Shollenberger said…
meredith geller,
Why do logicians charge someone with lying when it it possible that a person might have made an error? The life of people is not governed by logical. People are lying or not lying.
I never heard of the words sequitur and non-sequitur in my long life as hard and soft scientist. So, I might have merely misused the word non-sequitur.
On my amazon statement, I probably used the word non-sequitur to align my thoughts for communicating a response to a term used by the person who was soliciting a response from me.
I conclude that the symbols, sequitor and non-sequestur, are going to find their existenes harder and harder when the philosophy of symbolism gets going in this world.
At 3:22 PM, Anonymous said…
"I never heard of the words sequitur and non-sequitur in my long life as hard and soft scientist. So, I might have merely misused the word non-sequitur. On my amazon statement, I probably used the word non-sequitur to align my thoughts for communicating a response to a term used by the person who was soliciting a response from me."
Here we have your biggest problem: you pretend to know what you don't know anything about. And faced with criticism, your reflex reaction is to accuse your opponents of narrow-minded atheism. You don't seriously try to understand the criticism.
From the first moment people started pointing to all the non sequiturs in your alleged proof, you acted like you knew what everyone was talking about. Now you admit that you didn't. Why didn't you ask what they meant by the term non sequitur? Or why didn't you look it up?
I guess because you like your self-appointed teacher role way too much. The truth is that the role of a modest student would suit you much better. Get off of your high horse and open your mind to matt, jef, dovie, kloster, bask and all the others. They really sound like they know their stuff.
At 5:40 PM, George Shollenberger said…
meredith geller,
You can critise me as much as you want because I expect and enjoy criticism. But when I do not accept a criticism, I have told you that my final position does not agree with yours. Also, I do not change easily because the knowledge I found in my life was too hard to find.
Logicians have problems because they can't find their true role in a culture. Instead of looking for their role, they take the role of dictators. When logicians force logic onto human life, I bite back for many reasons, which most logicians will not understand. Like chemists, logians are rather ignorant on subjects outside of their own field of thought.
At Caltech I conclude that Jef is into artifical intelligence. If so, tell him that I reject the idea that a robot can become the intelligence of a human being. Why can't artificial intelligent researchers classify a robot as a machine rather than something is, or almost is, a human being? But, the intelligence of a machine is an infinite distance from the intelligence of a human being. Obviously, Caltech must continually get federal funds? But why lie to the taxpayers?
Don't you guys and gals realize that the taxpayers are getting tired of this kind of handout? If the leader of Caltech is dishonest to the taxpayer, get rid of him or her.
I don't know enough about dovie. But, kloster and Bask are completely ignorant of science. Hell, they can't even read my book. They will become totally lost in Part IIa on Nicholas of Cusa. But, will they admit of their ignorance of what is in my book. No, they just go on and hide their ignorance.
Logicians have the whole field of life sciences confused. Sequiturs and non-sequitures do not apply to living things. I conclude that the life sciences have major scientific problems and errors because logicians are forcing logic onto the life sciences dishonestly.
In my book I use the concept 'consistence.' When I proved God scientifically, I searched and found mny consistences. I did not find any sequiturs and non sequiturs. And that is what I will continue to teach. If you don't like my teachings, don't read them.
Apparently, US logicians never read the Declaration of Independence. If they did, they didn't understand it. The Laws of Nature and Nature's God govern the universe and all life. Logic applies only to the Laws of Nature. Logic does not determine the Laws of Nature's God. The Laws of Nature's God are moral laws, not logical laws. At times, it sems to me that logicians are not even US citizens. Further, logicians seem to act more like distators than scientists.
At 9:31 AM, Rev. BigDumbChimp said…
Wow. Just...wow.
At 11:47 AM, George Shollenberger said…
Hi Robert,
This is the impression I have of US logicians. I can't say that my impression is not partly influenced by my reading of the life of Georg Cantor and the inhumane acts of the German logicians who would not open their closed minds to God and his transfinite numbers.
At 12:23 PM, Anonymous said…
"I do not change easily because the knowledge I found in my life was too hard to find."
That's the wrong approach. You are suggesting that you only hold on to your alleged proof because it was so very difficult to fabricate. Real scientists change their views (knowledge) when these become untenable, no matter how hard it was for them to develop those views.
"When I proved God scientifically, I searched and found mny consistences. I did not find any sequiturs and non sequiturs."
Of course you didn't. As was revealed during this discussion, at the time you wrote your book you didn't even know what a non sequitur was. So how could you have found one?
"I conclude that the life sciences have major scientific problems and errors because logicians are forcing logic onto the life sciences dishonestly."
Not true. All logicians do (mostly the scientists themselves) is assess the validity of theories, whether the be theories about anorganic matter or about life and living things.
People who teach without knowing what they are talking about corrupt the young minds of the USA. So please stop teaching. Don't they give any German or Logic or writing courses at your local community center?
At 3:08 PM, George Shollenberger said…
meredith geller,
As a scientist, I would certainly change as new material enters my mind. But, when I do a big research study and make decisions on this or that, I do not change easily. Those people who change easily are followers. I am not the following kind of person other scientists.
Might I tell you again. I am not convinced that a sequitur is a concept that I want to enter my MINDSET. I have problems with it.
You must be blind of the problems in the life sciences.
What I know is teachable. And what I am not sure of is also teachable. So, I will continue my teaching. It is my opinion that the field of logic is crupting our youth.
At 5:29 AM, Anonymous said…
"As a scientist, I would certainly change as new material enters my mind."
That is not true. Many posters have explained the various flaws in your alleged proof and provided you with a vast array of new knowledge, yet you stubbornly hold on to your views. They
1. explained to you what a non sequitur is, the whole concept of which you were entirely unfamiliar with when you wrote your book
2. opened your mind to the fact that there is no real difference between your so-called scientific language and talk language.
3. made you see that with your precious "Plato's negative" it is possible to establish relationships between any pair of disconnected things or beings one can think of.
Again: in spite of all this wonderful new knowledge about the many flaws and errors in your book, you keep defending it and you still think you are in a position to teach others. Wake up to reality, George Shollenberger.
At 10:56 AM, George Shollenberger said…
meredith geller,
These posters are atheists who have presented their opinions. They have not given me any new knowledge. This is why I hold on to my opinions against atheism.
They have given their opinions on sequiturs and non-sequiturs. I reject their opinions.
You are completely ignorant of the difference between talk language and scientific language. These two different languages cause many problems. Atheists are ignorant on soooooo many subjects. Don't atheists read anythong other than logical magazines, newspapers, etc.?
Bask never herd of Plato's negative before I used it. And he still does not understand it. He any you knows nothing about Plato.
You are the one who must wake up.
At 11:27 AM, Anonymous said…
Now you are becoming dishonest, which is totally uncalled for. Really!
1. You yourself have admitted that your scientific language is characterized by short sentences without commas, while your talk language features longer sentences with commas. And you admitted reluctantly that that's the only difference.
2. I had another look at the amazon website. Bask copied your example of Plato's negative, only substituting a few names, and asked you why his version would not be as valid as yours. That could have been the start of an interesting discussion, but strangely enough you refused to answer his question.
3. As my late grandfather used to say: one can only reject what one has a thorough knowledge of. We have been the teachers who tried to teach you about non sequiturs, you were the student who didn't understand.
At 4:00 PM, George Shollenberger said…
meredith geller,
You also have the bad habit of calling one either honest or dishonest. Your use of logic among people will not gain many friends.
I use short sentences so that I can expand my readers into the blue collar group. Short sentences teach more people. This is my style of writing for this book. Part IIa on Nicholas of Cusa, for instance, is very difficult, even for the best scientists and theologians.
I lost interest in Bask. his writings are not systematic and are thus confusing. I also think he might have lied to me when he said the he was a government employee. Further, I don't think that he will ever understand me or any science.
Your grandfather was right. So why do you reject God without knowing God?
If you are a teacher, this country is in deep trouble.
At 3:20 AM, Anonymous said…
This is a parody, right George? Because no one can be that stupid.
At 3:28 AM, Anonymous said…
"You also have the bad habit of calling one either honest or dishonest."
Earlier you wrote "A bit of dishonesty here". People call you dishonest, not out of habit, but because you are dishonest. Good people have a natural sort of loathing for the dishonesty of bad people like you, George -- that's why they enshrine it in "commandments" and oaths and perjury laws and such. Loathsome, George, that's what you are.
At 4:12 PM, George Shollenberger said…
truth machine,
Certainly, I am joking. I love all people. But,I joke when I want to make a point so that it does not go in one ear and right out the other side.
At 4:24 PM, George Shollenberger said…
truth machine,,
Since I am a very honest person, I, like other people, do not liked to be called dishonest.
The ugly English language, which is filled with Aristotle's logical concepts, forces us to use very annoying logical statements. I make then and all other Americans make them.
If people think I am dishonest, they do not know me.
You are a person who does not know me. so, how can you say that i am dishonese? What is you basis of judging me?
I hope that you and other logicians stay away from this website? They waste my time.
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